Former Israeli negotiator talks about the next phase of the Gaza peace plan

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NPR's Michel Martin talks about the prospects for Phase Two of the Gaza peace plan with former Israeli negotiator Daniel Levy, president of the U.S./Middle East Project.

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:

We're going to go now to someone who knows what goes into trying to make peace in the Middle East. That's Daniel Levy. He was an Israeli peace negotiator under prime ministers Ehud Barak and Yitzhak Rabin. Now he is president of the U.S./Middle East Project. The nonprofit policy institute based in New York and London says it works to advance a dignified Israeli-Palestinian peace. Daniel Levy, good morning. Thank you for joining us once again.

DANIEL LEVY: Pleasure to be with you, Michel.

MARTIN: How do you read the prime minister's meeting with President Trump? Based on what you heard coming out of the meeting, what are the prospects for this next phase of the Gaza peace deal?

LEVY: Vanishingly thin, I'm afraid, Michel, because what we have seen is yet again an American president, this time with a different level of - loose relationship with the truth and a different level of bombast, basically giving an Israeli prime minister the green light to define a so-called ceasefire as he sees it. So if more than 400 Palestinians are killed, we're told that's a ceasefire. If there are military operations every day, almost 1,000 infractions on the Israeli side, we're told that's OK. Aid that was guaranteed to get in has not been allowed in - only about a quarter of the trucks. It's a desperate situation still for Palestinians. No intention on the Israeli side to withdraw from the more than 55% of Gaza still under direct Israeli reoccupation. These are all bleak things. But the American president will tell us, hey, it's a ceasefire. It's peace after 3,000 years. And if not enough people call his bluff, then this is where we will be stuck, and things will deteriorate, of course.

MARTIN: Well, you know, Israel's defense minister recently said that Israel will never leave Gaza, but the peace plan says that Israel will not occupy Gaza. So how is this apparent contradiction going to be resolved?

LEVY: First, it's a very loosely worded and - let's be honest - incoherent so-called peace plan. This is not either a serious approach to conflict resolution nor a serious approach to holding parties to a document that actually has ironclad commitments in it. But the way you resolve that, as far as the Israeli government is concerned - and as you say, it's a government that has shown its commitment to there never being a Palestinian state, Palestinian rights. The way you resolve that is you tell the Americans, this is how we define it. And either America says, wait a minute, no, that's not peace, you can't do that, or they say, yes, sir. And we have another president who's apparently willing to say, yes, sir.

Even more terrifying, I think, coming out of yesterday was this reference, again, to Palestinians being displaced from Gaza. He said half of them want to leave when asked in a question. So you have an Israeli society, politics, which has generated consent for genocide, now being told, yes, you can ethnically cleanse. That is an extremely dangerous harbinger for what next.

MARTIN: I do have to note that human rights groups and experts commissioned by the - a U.N. body have said Israel's actions in Gaza amount to genocide. Israel does reject that charge and says it invaded Gaza to defend itself from genocide by Hamas. So with that being said, if - your argument seems to be that the Netanyahu government and the Trump administration are going to insist rhetorically that the peace plan is in place and is moving forward, even as it does not, as both sides essentially stall. There are other actors there. Are there other actors then who would have influence here?

LEVY: Crucial question, Michel, and I think that is what hovers above this. Will the regional parties come together enough, summon enough willingness to challenge the U.S. administration and the Israelis? They are doing that rhetorically, but will they use their leverage? Will the Europeans, who, in another instance, call it out when it's nonsense, will they do that here, or are they happy to swing in behind Trump? I fear it's the latter. You do have elsewhere, in the so-called Global South, people who are calling this out, who are imposing measures against Israel, but it's going to depend a lot on those other actors. That's before we even talk, Michel, about what's going on in the West Bank, where the relentless Israeli destruction continues, and whether indeed this meeting was a green light for further military action against Iran.

You do also have your internal debate not only in the U.S., but also inside the MAGA movement. And President Trump seems to have leaned in quite heavily to the Israel First wing of that movement with what he said last night. We may have announcements that there's a Board of Peace, that there's some kind of international governance, but what I don't think we will have is deterrence for Israel's continued international violations of international law, continued war crimes or protection for Palestinians.

MARTIN: That's Daniel Levy. He's a former Israeli negotiator, now president of the U.S./Middle East Project. Mr. Levy, thank you.

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