President Donald Trump participated in a phone interview with TIME at the White House on Oct. 15.
Over the course of the interview, Trump discussed in detail how the ceasefire in Gaza came together and his view on where the region goes from here.
Here's what Trump told TIME Senior Political Correspondent Eric Cortellessa.
TIME: I want to start off by asking what do we not know about the behind-the-scenes events that led to this agreement? What were the turning points and key moments?
Well, you know, you have 3,000 years of history, and in the case of the Middle East, there’s tremendous hatred, there's tremendous dislike, there's tremendous distrust among everybody. And you don't have allies, very few allies, and people that you think are allies don't really like each other. So you have a set of separate, in some cases some very smart, and in some cases some very rich—very, very rich countries, right? But they were able—and I knew many of them from even before politics, and, you know, they were able to come together for peace in the Middle East. This is peace in the Middle East. This is above and beyond Gaza.
And a lot of it happened—a lot of the problem was when Bush went in and blew up Iraq, he destabilized the region, because you had one strong power. You had two strong powers—Iraq and Iran—and they were identical. And they would fight each other for 1,000 years under different names and different religions, but they would fight each other for many, many centuries, and they were the same. They were the same power. So they'd fight, and then they'd come to a standstill, and then they'd fight again and become—but it was the same. And when we blew up one of the two powers, all of a sudden you had one bully, and the bully was—see, they weren't bullies when they were fighting, because they were fighting each other. But they were, they became—Iran was a serious bully.
When we went to war, because we were with Israel, and so when we went to war with them, and had all of the success, and then when I went in and knocked out their nuclear potential and capability, and it was seriously knocked out. They still can't get down there, you know, because CNN fake news said, “Well, maybe it wasn't that bad.” They said, “it was bad, but maybe not.” I said, “No, it's complete obliteration.” And, as you know, the Atomic Energy Commission said I was right. Every bomb hit their mark. It was unbelievable, the attack. It was a perfect, every plane was perfect. There wasn't a screw out of joint. There wasn't an engine that failed. there wasn't anything. It was 37 hours back and forth with 52 tankers and 100 planes because, you know, we had a lot of fighter jets and stuff to go in with them.
[Editor's Note: Independent international inspectors have yet to confirm the full extent of the attack’s damage to Iran’s nuclear facilities. In the days after the offensive, CNN reported that the U.S. military’s strikes did not destroy the core components of Iran’s nuclear program, and likely only set it back by months, citing three people briefed on an early US intelligence assessment. Nearly a month later, U.S. officials briefed some lawmakers, Defense Department officials, and allied countries on an assessment determined that, while one of the nuclear sites was mostly destroyed, the other two were not as badly damaged and could potentially resume uranium enrichment within the next several months, according to NBC News. Iranian Foreign Minister Abbas Araqchi has said the strikes on the Fordow nuclear site caused severe damage.]
It was an unbelievable military—it should go down someday. It was, because you remember when Jimmy Carter where they had the attack with the helicopters crashing, the men running all over the desert trying to get out? Oh man, what an embarrassment. They became prisoners, and they became hostages, right? They were there. They were there—then hostages. Well, we didn't have any of that. This was a flawless attack, and we went into the nuclear and just bombed the hell out of them, and so they no longer had that nuclear threat, and they were on a conventional basis, they were weakened severely, and we had a different Middle East because we didn't have a bully. So you couldn't have made this deal.
Now, then you could also say, we took out Soleimani. You know, it really started years ago, because you had a different person in Soleimani than you had, let's say now. Of course, they lost three layers. We killed three layers of their leaders, their military leaders. You know, one after another. So anyway, Iran became much different, and it was no longer a bully. We're talking about over the last few months. It was no longer a bully. The Soloimani thing, I think, was important. That's when it started, in the first term. I had a great first term, but the Soleimani, he was important. He was getting ready to attack our five, our five forts. And in fact, he was with the man from Iraq who was on that side, and they were getting ready, but mostly Soleimani was getting ready to attack five of our forts. You know, we have embedded forts in different places, and they were all set to go, and we got them first. That was big and—but then you bring it to this, and what happened is we took them out. So they were no longer threatening, or at least, very minor by comparison.
So let's say they had the potential. Let's say we didn't do the attack, which every president was expected to do for 22 years. You know, the pilots were in my office. They said, “Sir, we've been practicing this maneuver. Our predecessors and us for 22 years.” Three times a year, they would practice that exact—you know, the flight, however they do it—but they would always practice that attack on the Iran nuclear. But no president was willing to do it, and I was willing to do it. And by doing it, we had a different Middle East. And by doing it, we were able to—you see, if Iran was sitting there, powerful and a bully, it would have been impossible to make a deal like this, because you would have had this looming threat over the region. Now it's not a looming threat.
Now, I'll tell you, even if we made the deal, which would not have been possible, because you wouldn't have had Saudi and all these people back it. You know, we had the backing of everybody. They wouldn't have backed it, because they would have the fear of the bully, right? Now that the bully is no longer the bully, they try and act that way, but nobody is concerned anymore at all. They're fighting for their lives. They're totally fighting for their lives. And not only that, we have sanctions on them. I mean, they are literally fighting for survival. They're not fighting to do nuclear. They're fighting for survival. Believe me, they’re very weak.
So you don't have that threat. Now, because you don't have that threat, everybody's open to peace. Because you don't have that threat, which they wouldn't have been before, because Iran would have been against everything. They were bad. And that's where Obama and Biden were so bad, because basically they wanted Iran to head everything, and they wanted a country that was going to make a nuclear weapon. Under the Iran nuclear deal, they would have had a massive nuclear weapon by now. You know, it expired a long time ago. I canceled it, but I said it's ready to expire anyway. But they had a road to a nuclear weapon unchallenged.
[Editor's Note: During his first term, Trump withdrew from the nuclear deal, reimposing sanctions on Iran and throwing the deal into turmoil. The program effectively came to an end in September, as members reimposed suspended sanctions after accusing Iran of failing to comply with its commitments. Earlier this month, Iran’s foreign ministry announced that it was no longer bound to the agreement. Both the Trump Administration and the Israeli government maintain that Iran's nuclear program and its physical infrastructure was significantly degraded.]
So the long story short is that we took the bully out of play. Everybody was great about it, and we signed the deal. Now, if we didn't take the bully out, number one, we wouldn't have signed, because there would have been many Arab countries that just could not have done that. I would have known that, and I wouldn't have even tried. And number two, let's assume everybody with the same exact deal that we have now—where everyone's together, everyone's united, we signed the paper, that was great, first time in 3,000 years—and let's assume we didn't do anything with Iran, there'd be a darker cloud hanging over that deal. The deal wouldn't mean anything, and that's all I have to say. That’s about it. I’ll stop talking, but that's the whole thing in a nutshell.
On that note, a lot of diplomats and analysts noted that it was very significant when you said Hamas would face “complete obliteration” if they didn't abide by the deal. After the Iran attacks, they were very fearful of what you might do. Hamas has, as you've seen, been shooting people in the streets, and they haven't returned all of the slain bodies. If they renege on the deal now, will you carry out that threat? Will they be obliterated?
Oh, certainly. Yes, they will be in big trouble. Big trouble. Right now they're killing gangs that we’re sort of finding out. But you know, at what point do the gangs morph into political opponents, right?
How will you get Hamas to disarm?
Well, you have to go in. If they don't. I mean, they've agreed to do that, right? So—see, the world was tired of us attacking—I'll say us, you know, Israel and us. We didn’t fight. They didn't like it. Anyway, it was a lot. And I said to Bibi, “Bibi, you can't fight the world. You can fight individual battles, but the world's against you. And Israel is a very small place compared to the world.”
You know, I stopped him, because he would have just kept going. It could have gone on for years. It would have gone on for years. And I stopped him, and everybody came together when I stopped, it was amazing. And when he made that one tactical mistake, the one on Qatar, and that was terrible, but actually, and I actually told the emir, this was one of the things that brought us all together, because it was so out of joint that it sort of got everybody to do what they have to do. Does that make sense to you?
Yes, definitely.
If you took that away, we might not be talking about this subject right now.
It's very interesting that you bring up how you stopped Netanyahu, because he's been famously obstreperous with previous presidents. How did you get him to listen to you? Because, as you know, he often hasn't listened to other presidents.
[President asks to go off the record]
He had to stop because the world was going to stop him. You know, I could see what was happening. You could see what was happening. And Israel was becoming very unpopular. And that's what I meant when I said “the world.” There are a lot of powers out there, okay, powers outside of the region. And anyway, he did the right thing. Now, if they were acting bad and everyone knows that, we'd have no trouble going in. Do you understand what I mean? So yeah, if they didn't follow the agreement. Now you go and the big thing, 95% you got the hostages back. Israel was so intent on the hostages, I was actually surprised. You would have thought they would have sacrificed the hostages in order to keep going, right? The people of Israel wanted the hostages more than they wanted anything else. And we got the hostages.
You certainly did. Do you plan to visit Gaza?
And we got them in one swoop. You know, they wanted to do the two. And I got a lot of—I got hundreds, but I got them over a long period of time. They’d give us five, they give us 10, they give us two, they give us three. And every time, it's like a big deal. I said, “No more of that. You're giving us the f–king hostages, all of them.”
And you know what? The hostages almost played to the disadvantage after–in other words, you know, they viewed the hostages in the last couple of months, they viewed them as a liability. In other words, they were actually hurting Hamas and Iran—the hostages. It's a psychological thing, but it got to a point where I think the hostages were actually hurting them. So they made a deal for all 20 hostages, and we got them, and I guess they're searching for the bodies and everything else. It's an amazing way it all came together. But the hostages were paramount. Getting those hostages out, you saw the parents away. You saw the people. I mean, hundreds of thousands of people in the square. Nothing to do with winning the war. Nothing to do. We just want our hostages back, and then separately, they want the bodies back. And the bodies are being searched for, you know, don't forget, the bodies are under a lot of rubble, under a lot of a lot of things. And I guess they've got certain numbers back. And they are trying because there's no disadvantage to doing it, you know?
So go ahead. What else do you have for me on this beautiful morning?
Do you plan to visit Gaza, sir, and under what conditions would you go?
I will. Yeah, I will. You know, we have the Board of Peace, and it's set up. They asked me to be the chairman. It was not something I wanted to do, believe me, but the Board of Peace is going to be a very powerful group of people, and it's going to have a lot of power in terms of the Middle East. The Middle East has never been brought together. It's really been brought together now, other than Hamas, which is a fringe group, and Hamas has, in theory, been brought together too, they signed the document. You know, they agreed to all this stuff. Now they can go against it. That's fine, and then nobody would mind if we went in and took them to task.
You told Netanyahu you will not allow him to annex the West Bank. There are still forces in his coalition who are pressing for it. I'm just wondering what, what are the consequences if they move forward?
It won't happen. It won't happen. It won’t happen because I gave my word to the Arab countries. And you can't do that now. We've had great Arab support. It won't happen because I gave my word to the Arab countries. It will not happen. Israel would lose all of its support from the United States if that happened.
Got it. We saw you speaking with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas at Sharm el-Sheikh. What did you say to him?
Well, you know, he's a much different man in person than he is in public. But he congratulated me. He said, you’ve done something that–he said “I've been through seven Presidents.” You know, he's not a young guy, but he looks fantastic, right? He said—I knew him from my first term. He actually came to the White House. And he's respected by the Palestinians. He is respected as a sage, you know, as a figure, but he said, “You've done something. I've been here for many presidents. He said you've done things that no other president would have done.” He said, “What you did is not, not even possible to do. I can't believe that you did it, but I congratulate you.” He was very nice. But he said other presidents would have never done this.
Do you see Abbas in a reconstituted Palestinian Authority as the governing authority in a post war Gaza?
Well, I've always gotten along with him. I've always found him reasonable, but he's probably not. But I have always found him reasonable, like, you know, you saw him come up to me and couldn't have been friendlier, and so I have to—I'd really have to find out. I'd have to seek it out, but so it would be a little bit early to make an opinion, but at some point I'll have an opinion. I know he'd like to be, but he said we did something that he never thought was possible. And again, the big thing was seriously weakening Iran to a point where they no longer are respected.
Who do you think currently leads the Palestinians?
They don't have a leader right now, at least a visible leader, and they don't really want to, because every one of those leaders has been shot and killed. It’s not a hot job.
Well, Marwan Barghouti is seen by many as the one figure who could unite Palestinians behind a two-state solution. He tops most polls amongst Palestinians for whom they would vote for in a presidential election. But he's in prison, and Israel has refused to let him out. He was arrested in 2002. Ron Lauder, a big support of yours, recently encouraged Israel to let him out. Do you think Israel should release him from prison?
I am literally being confronted with that question about 15 minutes before you called. That was the question. That was my question of the day. So I'll be making a decision.
Mr. President, now that you've secured a Gaza peace deal, how close are we to a Saudi-Israel normalization agreement? And what still needs to happen to bring that across the finish line?
I think we're very close. I think Saudi Arabia is going to lead the way. I have great respect and like for the king, as you know, we have a great relationship, and I think Saudi Arabia will lead the way toward the Abraham Accords. That's a big deal. So the Abraham Accords—Biden did nothing with them except make them more difficult. And you know what? The amazing thing, we kept the four members, because they're doing great in the Abraham Accords, so nobody left. But instead of four members, within six months, we would have had everybody signed up.
But now it's easier. Now it's better. Look, we had an Iran threat. That's why I have such respect for those four members that went in, because they went in knowing there was an Iran threat. Think of that, right? UAE. You know, they went in knowing that there was—because that was when Iran was at the top of its game in terms of power, and they went in. I have great respect. We don't have the Iran threat anymore. We don't have any threats anymore. We have peace in the Middle East. And I think that the Abraham Accords are going to start filling up very quickly. I actually know it.
Do you think Saudi will join the Abraham Accords by the end of the year?
Yes, I do. I do.
And coming just to our final question–
See they had a problem. They had a Gaza problem and they had an Iran problem. Now they don't have those two problems.
You've been in office for less than a year, Mr. President, in the second term, and the region has already been transformed. Hezbollah's leadership has been decimated. Bashar Al Assad has been replaced by a government seeking normalization—
And you know, all of those attacks were done in auspices with, actually, with me directly. You know, with Israel doing the attacks, with the pagers and all that stuff. So they had a—look they've been, Israel's been very respectful of this country. And they let me know everything. And sometimes I'd say no, and they'd be respectful of that, but Obama treated Israel so badly. You know, they didn't want the Iran nuclear deal, which was a horrible deal. Stupid deal, because it gave them a—really, I'm surprised they didn't pull it off. I was sure that when I left, I was sure that they would be able to, because I was the one that stopped it then, but for four years and Obama went—it's sort of funny, when they say, “Oh, well, we should get a little credit.” No, they shouldn't. It's the opposite. They went with Iran. We had to get that stench off. They went with Iran. They didn't go with the other side, which is a whole lot of nations. They went—they placed all their money on Iran. And so what you'd have right now, if they had their way, is that you'd have a nuclear-weaponized, at the highest level, nuclear Iran. That's what you'd have. And there'd be no talking to them. There would be no talking to them.
Do you see these as lasting realignments in the Middle East or do you worry that they may be temporary victories that depend on your continued presence in office? And how do you see your presidency reshaping the Middle East?
Well, I think we've reshaped it, and I think that it's now just growing in a beautiful manner. So the question is what happens later? But I can say this, I have more than three years left. That's a long time. While I'm there, it's going to only get better and stronger, and it's going to be perfect. Okay? It's going to be great. What happens after me? I can't tell you that. You know, you can have bad presidents. If a bad president comes in, it could end very easily. It could end. The most important thing is they have to respect the President of the United States. The Middle East has to understand that. And they do. If you go to Qatar, if you go to Saudi Arabia, if you go to UAE, who are the three big ones, in that sense, they all respect the president, and if they're not going to respect the president—it's almost the president more so than the country. You understand that? If they don't respect the president, and if the president doesn't know what he's doing, it could break apart. If they do respect the president, it's going to be long-term beautiful peace.
Thank you, Mr. President, I greatly appreciate the time.
Thank you. It’s been very interesting, a very interesting call, actually. I enjoyed it. You know, you don't think about it, and then somebody asks you, like, what caused it? And the more I thought about it, even as I was talking to you, the more I realized that that attack and bringing down Iran made it possible to get it done. Without that, you couldn't have done this. It would have been impossible. The Arab countries wouldn't have done it. But even if they did, it wouldn't be worth anything, because they'd have that cloud of a nuclear weapon dropping on their head. They'd be thinking about that, and it would have meant very little, I think. It would have meant very little because it was a nasty threat. That was a very—that was a very big, big, strong bully. And they used that power that they had very strongly over the Middle East, and they really controlled it, but they don't control it anymore. They're not respected anymore at all. Okay? Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. President.
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