Former U.S. ambassador talks about Trump's rhetoric on NATO

NPR's A Martinez asks Dan Baer, former U.S. ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, about the Trump administration's recent rhetoric around NATO.

A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:

The war has put Trump at odds with European leaders who have refused to intervene and, in some cases, wouldn't let the U.S. use their airspace or military bases to help fight the war. And President Trump has again declared he's reconsidering America's commitment to NATO. Let's ask Dan Baer about that. He was the ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, or OSCE, during the Obama administration. All 32 NATO members are also part of the OSCE. He's now senior vice president at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Ambassador, we've heard President Trump question NATO membership before. Are this week's remarks any different or hold more weight?

DAN BAER: Well, they come in the wake of the statements about Greenland earlier this year, which shook the NATO allies' confidence further. And obviously, these statements further undermine what is at the core of NATO, which is trust. What NATO needs in order to work in order to be effective to defend U.S. interests is for allies to know and to be able to believe that an attack on one is an attack on all. And they need to know that, and adversaries need to know that. So when President Trump undermines that trust, he weakens NATO and makes it less able to defend U.S. interests, as well as the interests of all other allies.

MARTÍNEZ: Now, over the last month, France made its airspace off-limits to U.S. warplanes, and Spain barred U.S. bombers from Spanish bases. Here's what Secretary of State Marco Rubio told Al Jazeera about that.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

MARCO RUBIO: NATO is just about us defending Europe, if they're attacked, but them denying us basing rights when we need them, that's not a very good arrangement. That's a hard one to stay engaged in and say, this is good for the United States. So all of that is going to have to be reexamined.

MARTÍNEZ: Ambassador, has President Trump made the U.S.' NATO membership conditional, as in if Europe doesn't help the U.S. with its war, then the U.S. won't help if member nations are attacked?

BAER: It sounds like that, but that's not how NATO works. NATO is a defensive alliance, and it seems like the Trump administration is lashing out at NATO allies because they've launched a war without a clear strategy and without consultation with those allies, and they're now in a bit of a bind. They're in a bit of a mess, and they're saying to the allies, we need your help, and the allies are saying, we don't want to be part of your mess. We're willing to be supportive, but we don't want to be part of the mess. And so, you know, they - one of the things about launching a war, generally, is that you talk to your partners and allies, you coordinate, you lay out a legal framework, you lay out a strategy, what the objectives are. And they haven't done this ahead of time, and they're trying to do it in real time right now. And allies are reasonably skeptical, and they're saying, you know, NATO is for defending ourselves against a war. It's not for launching wars outside of the NATO area.

MARTÍNEZ: You mentioned the lack of trust that exists or that could exist, with President Trump threatening to leave NATO. Is NATO at its weakest point that it's ever been in?

BAER: I mean, on the one hand, it's at its weakest point because President Trump, through repeated questioning of the U.S. commitment to NATO, has weakened the trust at the core of it. On the other hand, NATO continues to do a lot of great work. Things are going on in Brussels. There are exercises going on. The NATO Nuclear Planning Group is part of the nuclear umbrella that protects all of Europe and the United States and our interests. And so I think it's important to understand this lashing out doesn't have anything to do with NATO not doing its job as such. It's really at the core. It's a lashing out from the White House.

MARTÍNEZ: When Secretary Rubio was senator, he co-sponsored legislation to keep a U.S. president from pulling out of NATO without the approval of Congress. What does that law require, and why does it matter here?

BAER: I mean, the law really matters as a statement of overwhelming support from a large number of U.S. leaders, which is to say Congress, for continued U.S. membership in NATO. It won't work as a technicality. I mean, it does require a notification period. It requires the approval of Congress to pull out of NATO. Obviously, that approval wouldn't be forthcoming. But if we get to a point where there's, you know, a suit in a U.S. court over whether Trump can or can't pull out of NATO, we've already lost at that point. I mean, the point is that when the president undermines the trust that the United States will be there to support our allies, which, by the way, is supporting U.S. interests. We have tons of investment in Europe. A lot of U.S. jobs depend on European stability. But when President Trump undermines the confidence, then NATO is already weakened.

MARTÍNEZ: Just a few seconds, Ambassador. If the U.S. doesn't withdraw from NATO and maybe reduces its commitment, is that almost the same as withdrawing?

BAER: No, it's not the same because NATO will continue to go on, and there will be an opportunity for the U.S. to come to its senses and recognize that we get...

MARTÍNEZ: OK.

BAER: ...A lot from NATO. It's an important alliance for us, and it secures American interests.

MARTÍNEZ: Dan Baer is the director of the Europe program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He's also a former U.S. ambassador to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. Ambassador, thanks.

BAER: Thank you.

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